Feb 5, 2023Ā·edited Feb 5, 2023Liked by Stephen Skolnick
Why would you have to exclude EBV from the ETX hypothesis? In a potentially joint EBV-Clostridium perfringes ETX hypothesis, you could envision that the same increase in STDs and antibiotic prescription during the teenage/early adult years might be accompanied by a primary EBV infection. EBV is known to infect the naso/oropharyngeal epithelium and other EBV-sensitive epithelial cells, there are reports that it can also infect epithelial cells from the gastrointestinal tract. EBV-infected B cells have also been found in gut mucosa. Thus, in a Clostridium perfringes dysbiotic gut, ETX could travel to the brain, cause increase permeability of the BBB, and along with EBV-infected B cells in the periphery or centrally, the pathomechanisms of MS could be set in motion. Moreover, without the need of having EBV-infected B cells in the gut, a dysbiotic gut could cause EBV reactivation in latently EBV-infected cells and this could lead to EBV-mediated mechanisms in genetically susceptible individuals.
Maybe this is interesting to you as you article is interesting to me. I know IĀ“m a n=1 and amateur at this stuff.
I have MS (M38) walking but the distances are not great but this is the main thing. Never ever have I been more healthy int terms of mental health / sharpness and I did a pretty good job hiding it from society (personal win) most of the time.
I do want to share that my MS diagnosis (2006) came after multiple rounds of antibiotics mainly related to teeth problems over the years including root canals infection, new procedures and eventual extraction. This coincides with the worst diet period of my life, years of Chinese food, pizza, fast food, sugary things and dairy. I mean it Chinese food multiple times a week, partying, little sleep, etc
IĀ“ve always instinctively suspected antibiotics were bad for me on top of everything else and felt immediate changes for the worse during/immediately after the course of taking and I token them on multiple occasions. Mainly changes in vision and my alarm bell was left leg trembling or car clutch. Imagine doctors faces looking at me like IĀ“m stupid when I shared my thoughts on antibiotics.
Over the years IĀ“ve noticed changes in the gut and stool and eventually post diagnostic I tried their medicine but it didn't work out. I felt terrible and I started getting more issues from the short time taking the shots. This is not advice to anyone but I quitted the traditional meds and went to a doctor working with sports athletes and actually knows what the microbiome is and follows the developments in this area. I started to read scientific studies on microbiome, etc and thinking of my own symptoms background and testing stuff such as stool samples while working with my doc. I changed my diet with all the stuff we learned and I do a pretty good job for the last 10 years (I live in Portugal) with "mediterranean diet /anti inflammatory" lifestyle and I feel things are stable in terms of "remission". Who said people can't change!!!
I have no medical research background! I try to read a lot of studies but I recognise that IĀ“m not equipped to understand some of it. I am an expert in my own experience, background and how I feel.
IĀ“ve always appreciated te molecular mimicry and in this case EBV. if you want to talk about the limitations on this I would happily read it.
IĀ“ve also read some interesting stuff around vitamin c supplementation to control EBV but there is always something/someone putting it down as stupid and maybe it is...
Thank you for writing this, this not the first time IĀ“ve read about ETX but it is been a while...
I had EBV last month. My doctors were very good but testing for mono isnāt fast or the first thing they check with generic symptoms like intermittent fever. It only happened because I mentioned hearing about a case. In the meantime I ended up taking 5 days of antibiotics before the diagnosis was a sure thing. So I can see an easy way for them to correlate.
Very interesting theory. In fact this is supported by these articles:
- Oral Multiple Sclerosis Drugs Inhibit the In vitro Growth of Epsilon Toxin Producing Gut Bacterium, Clostridium perfringens Kareem R. Rumah et al. 2017
In addition it seems that Boswellic Acid (from Frankincense plant) could modulate the microbiome in order to modify the disease ( - StĆ¼rner, K.H. et al. Boswellic acids immunomodulate T cell populations in relapsing-remitting multiple sclerosis in the SABA phase IIa clinical trial ) https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/89/4/330 .
At the same time Boswellic acid has been proven in vitro as effective against C. Perfrigens:
- Screening of plant extracts for antimicrobial activity against bacteria and yeasts with dermatological relevance; S. Weckesser et al. 2007. Please see the MIC in this article... in addition,
C. Perfrigens is present not only in meat but also in milk and dairy products: these should be avoided in an optimal "MS Diet" ... just a case? ( Occurrence of Clostridium perfringens in Milk and Dairy Products; T.A. El-Bassiony https://doi.org/10.4315/0362-028X-43.7.536).
In addition Sardinian population is particularly prone to MS and the sheeps are integrant part of the culture of the island along with traditional cheeses.. In Italian mainland, despite a common genetic background, the cases are sensibly less..
Just to close the circle of coincidence: being a dog owner put you at higher risk of MS if you search in the literature. Faeces of dogs are rich in C. Perfrigens..
According to Agatha Christie, one coincidence is just a coincidence, two coincidences are a clue, three coincidences are a proof.
If you want to contact me to discuss further you have my contact details on linkedin ;) Very good article!!
Absolutely fascinating again, thank you. I DEMAND A BOOK! Please write a book? I want to add you to my microbes shelf. š¤šš¼š¦ š§«šš¼š¤
Why would you have to exclude EBV from the ETX hypothesis? In a potentially joint EBV-Clostridium perfringes ETX hypothesis, you could envision that the same increase in STDs and antibiotic prescription during the teenage/early adult years might be accompanied by a primary EBV infection. EBV is known to infect the naso/oropharyngeal epithelium and other EBV-sensitive epithelial cells, there are reports that it can also infect epithelial cells from the gastrointestinal tract. EBV-infected B cells have also been found in gut mucosa. Thus, in a Clostridium perfringes dysbiotic gut, ETX could travel to the brain, cause increase permeability of the BBB, and along with EBV-infected B cells in the periphery or centrally, the pathomechanisms of MS could be set in motion. Moreover, without the need of having EBV-infected B cells in the gut, a dysbiotic gut could cause EBV reactivation in latently EBV-infected cells and this could lead to EBV-mediated mechanisms in genetically susceptible individuals.
š If you wanted to test your theory out... The Eliava institute does have C. perfringens bacteriophage in their collection:
http://eliava-institute.org/phage-collection/?lang=en
supposedly they use these bacteriophages in Georgia. So it's possible this particular bacteriophage even has a history of human use there.
Hi Poop Scientist,
Maybe this is interesting to you as you article is interesting to me. I know IĀ“m a n=1 and amateur at this stuff.
I have MS (M38) walking but the distances are not great but this is the main thing. Never ever have I been more healthy int terms of mental health / sharpness and I did a pretty good job hiding it from society (personal win) most of the time.
I do want to share that my MS diagnosis (2006) came after multiple rounds of antibiotics mainly related to teeth problems over the years including root canals infection, new procedures and eventual extraction. This coincides with the worst diet period of my life, years of Chinese food, pizza, fast food, sugary things and dairy. I mean it Chinese food multiple times a week, partying, little sleep, etc
IĀ“ve always instinctively suspected antibiotics were bad for me on top of everything else and felt immediate changes for the worse during/immediately after the course of taking and I token them on multiple occasions. Mainly changes in vision and my alarm bell was left leg trembling or car clutch. Imagine doctors faces looking at me like IĀ“m stupid when I shared my thoughts on antibiotics.
Over the years IĀ“ve noticed changes in the gut and stool and eventually post diagnostic I tried their medicine but it didn't work out. I felt terrible and I started getting more issues from the short time taking the shots. This is not advice to anyone but I quitted the traditional meds and went to a doctor working with sports athletes and actually knows what the microbiome is and follows the developments in this area. I started to read scientific studies on microbiome, etc and thinking of my own symptoms background and testing stuff such as stool samples while working with my doc. I changed my diet with all the stuff we learned and I do a pretty good job for the last 10 years (I live in Portugal) with "mediterranean diet /anti inflammatory" lifestyle and I feel things are stable in terms of "remission". Who said people can't change!!!
I have no medical research background! I try to read a lot of studies but I recognise that IĀ“m not equipped to understand some of it. I am an expert in my own experience, background and how I feel.
IĀ“ve always appreciated te molecular mimicry and in this case EBV. if you want to talk about the limitations on this I would happily read it.
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/01/epstein-barr-virus-multiple-sclerosis.html
IĀ“ve also read some interesting stuff around vitamin c supplementation to control EBV but there is always something/someone putting it down as stupid and maybe it is...
Thank you for writing this, this not the first time IĀ“ve read about ETX but it is been a while...
I had EBV last month. My doctors were very good but testing for mono isnāt fast or the first thing they check with generic symptoms like intermittent fever. It only happened because I mentioned hearing about a case. In the meantime I ended up taking 5 days of antibiotics before the diagnosis was a sure thing. So I can see an easy way for them to correlate.
Very interesting theory. In fact this is supported by these articles:
- Oral Multiple Sclerosis Drugs Inhibit the In vitro Growth of Epsilon Toxin Producing Gut Bacterium, Clostridium perfringens Kareem R. Rumah et al. 2017
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcimb.2017.00011/full
In addition it seems that Boswellic Acid (from Frankincense plant) could modulate the microbiome in order to modify the disease ( - StĆ¼rner, K.H. et al. Boswellic acids immunomodulate T cell populations in relapsing-remitting multiple sclerosis in the SABA phase IIa clinical trial ) https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/89/4/330 .
At the same time Boswellic acid has been proven in vitro as effective against C. Perfrigens:
- Screening of plant extracts for antimicrobial activity against bacteria and yeasts with dermatological relevance; S. Weckesser et al. 2007. Please see the MIC in this article... in addition,
C. Perfrigens is present not only in meat but also in milk and dairy products: these should be avoided in an optimal "MS Diet" ... just a case? ( Occurrence of Clostridium perfringens in Milk and Dairy Products; T.A. El-Bassiony https://doi.org/10.4315/0362-028X-43.7.536).
In addition Sardinian population is particularly prone to MS and the sheeps are integrant part of the culture of the island along with traditional cheeses.. In Italian mainland, despite a common genetic background, the cases are sensibly less..
Just to close the circle of coincidence: being a dog owner put you at higher risk of MS if you search in the literature. Faeces of dogs are rich in C. Perfrigens..
According to Agatha Christie, one coincidence is just a coincidence, two coincidences are a clue, three coincidences are a proof.
If you want to contact me to discuss further you have my contact details on linkedin ;) Very good article!!
Absolutely fascinating again, thank you. I DEMAND A BOOK! Please write a book? I want to add you to my microbes shelf. š¤šš¼š¦ š§«šš¼š¤